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Post by jonny042 on Feb 9, 2011 9:50:56 GMT -5
Even these guys are smart enough to avoid using reverse grid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT8Om9KNB2s&feature=relatedWhy aren't we? I'm sure using reverse grid is directly responsible for a large portion of the carnage of the last race weekend (and every other time it is used). It's insane. We have a very expensive timing system in place that would easily allow qualifying to determine the grid for the first heat, finishing order for #1 determines #2, #2 determines #3 (if held) and points total for day determines grid for feature. And there better be a better reason for the reverse grid than "it's better for the fans" because last time I checked the club wasn't charging admission. And cutting the day short because we can't run 1/2 a lap without a major incident is not good for anyone. Jon Nelson
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Post by sparx on Feb 10, 2011 18:53:19 GMT -5
so then you are saying that it is my fault that the racing ended short because of the accidents in the first corner?.... last time I checked, the timing/scoring and race scheduling team aren't behind the wheels of the cars.... i really don't think that reversing the grid for a race is the ultimate cause of the mayhem.... just my $0.02
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Post by curtis on Feb 10, 2011 20:01:45 GMT -5
Hey jon your really catching the club on some of it's worst lows .You could just qualify and always start the fastest to the front but not all of the carnage happen from the slower cars being up front.ie jeff marshall(one of the best driver on the ice)grabbed a little bank and a car from the back had ran right into him. also the second crash on sunday ,the major damage was also caused from one of the back cars piling into the mess.
Just for fun would you like to see the studded cars get sent out 30 sec apart after they been qualified......?that would be boring as hell.So having said "there better be a better reason" just think would you come out to race if you were spread out?or finished in the exact same place you started every weekend.i could see you in the pits after saying how boring the racing is.
Also jon how many different racing events do you do a year?I personally do quite a few and ice racing is by far the best bang for your buck.even if you right your car off it is possible to build a championship car in a week! I don't think you'll be able to do that anywhere else.
These crappy weekend DON'T happen all the time. Good to see post like this jon! It can't be all just holding hands singing songs out there.
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Post by jonny042 on Feb 10, 2011 21:11:00 GMT -5
so then you are saying that it is my fault that the racing ended short because of the accidents in the first corner?.... last time I checked, the timing/scoring and race scheduling team aren't behind the wheels of the cars.... i really don't think that reversing the grid for a race is the ultimate cause of the mayhem.... just my $0.02 I did not say that, nor did I mean that. So please don't put words in my mouth. And taking this personally is not likely to help. The gridding is presently being done the same way it's been done for a very long time. None of us want weekends like the last, but unless we are open to trying something different, nothing is going to change.
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Post by jonny042 on Feb 10, 2011 21:47:26 GMT -5
Hey jon your really catching the club on some of it's worst lows .You could just qualify and always start the fastest to the front but not all of the carnage happen from the slower cars being up front.ie jeff marshall(one of the best driver on the ice)grabbed a little bank and a car from the back had ran right into him. also the second crash on sunday ,the major damage was also caused from one of the back cars piling into the mess. Just for fun would you like to see the studded cars get sent out 30 sec apart after they been qualified......?that would be boring as hell.So having said "there better be a better reason" just think would you come out to race if you were spread out?or finished in the exact same place you started every weekend.i could see you in the pits after saying how boring the racing is. Also jon how many different racing events do you do a year?I personally do quite a few and ice racing is by far the best bang for your buck.even if you right your car off it is possible to build a championship car in a week! I don't think you'll be able to do that anywhere else. These crappy weekend DON'T happen all the time. Good to see post like this jon! It can't be all just holding hands singing songs out there. Listen, everyone, please, I'm not trying to start an argument or be adversarial with my comments, I really do want things to be better. If I didn't care I'd keep my mouth shut, it certainly would be easier. But at the current trajectory ice racing is headed for a crash. Curtis, thanks for your input..... are you're suggesting that everything is perfect the way it is? I believe the reverse grid largely contributes to the problem, and stand by that opinion. First lets start by ignoring studded class. Smaller car counts, greater difference in performance potential, and consistent traction all through the race mean that the problem is much smaller, the biggest problem last weekend was visibility, that's it. And the racing really wouldn't have been any different with a "normal" grid. The finishing order would have been the same or similar. Rubber-to-ice is a different story. As much as people don't like to admit it, in rubber-to-ice the first lap is equally as important as the rest of the race. And it fosters a Bonzai attitude to the start and the first lap. You know it, I know it, everyone does. If you're going to make up places and time, do it on the first lap. You have to. Why would Jeff Marshal (one of the best drivers out there) be in a snowbank in the first place. You're saying it had nothing to do with reverse grid, and the fact he was likely having to get around a slower car while the rest of the pack was barreling in behind him? I disagree. Had the race started in "order" it may not have happened. The same goes for SOME of the other incidents. Of course there are other contributing factors, including the visibility of course. But everything ads up to a bunch of wrecked cars, and an Ambulance on the track for the first time that I know of. That's scary. I agree with you that ice racing is the best bang for your buck. But I wouldn't want to be on track with anyone who thinks their car is disposable. Build a car in a week? I don't think so. That attitude is going to get someone hurt. And for every car that gets fixed or replaced and brought back out, there is one hauled off to scrap and yet another pissed off person who will never come back. It doesn't have to be this way. Ask around, there are still people wandering around the pits who remember racing their STREET cars. I'm offering my opinion on how things could be done differently, like I said above, doing things the same way and expecting different results is insane. Has anyone got any other suggestions? Is anything going to be different on Sunday? I was unable to attend the meeting so I don't know if any resolutions were made to improve safety?
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Post by curtis on Feb 10, 2011 22:36:31 GMT -5
Do you think that you could organize the PERFECT racing event?Not going to happen.there will always be cars getting damaged in the rubber to ice class it is the nature of the beast.Look at your car when it raced rubber.I know shawn got into a person or 2.this happens.totaling the cars that we did isn't a common occurrence and in the perfect world we would have 0 crashes BUT...
I don't believe that any of the cars are disposable i was just saying that most of the cars in rubber to ice are not the best of shape and are all banged up.And it's not hard to get one on the ice.If everyone was racing there street cars do you think that there would of been people wrecking them as much.I don't think so!
I am not hating on you jon just putting in my 2c And yes this weekend will be better.Forsure!!!!!!LOL I am not afraid of change and i believe everyone else isn't either.
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Post by jonny042 on Feb 11, 2011 9:01:29 GMT -5
I couldn't organize an ice racing event at all!! So credit to those who do. But if we keep the conversation going and try new things then maybe race days will be more enjoyable not just for the racers but the volunteers as well.
It's supposed to be warmer this weekend, so visibility should be better and the rubber class cars should be slower. Both things should improve the safety of the racing.
But we shouldn't forget what happened and how close we may have been to a serious injury. Take a look at the "hits" from last weekend, we were lucky that none of them were square on the drivers door, our day may have ended even sooner than it did?
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Post by gadomko on Feb 11, 2011 21:07:06 GMT -5
The rubber class was created to be a stepping stone to studded and train drivers in car control. That is one the basics driving SKILLS for an Auto Sport Club. What we have today is far off from the taget that the class was created. People are not going to be intrested in joining the club if all they see is damaged wreck cars. If we going to maintain and build the car count drivers have to respect the banks and stop driving blind into corners hoping to make it to the next. I am no longer seeing SKILL but the "ball of dogs" from the cartoons that have no direction but hoping to make it somewhere. Boy that's real racing. I think this will be my last year.
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Post by Rob Nolan on Feb 12, 2011 6:16:31 GMT -5
I'm sure using reverse grid is directly responsible for a large portion of the carnage of the last race weekend (and every other time it is used). It's insane. The "reverse grid" actually has nothing to do with it. The first heat is based on a random draw. The second heat is simply a reversed version of the first heat. The only time the actual "reverse grid" theory could come into play would be the Feature race where, unless changes have been made, the grid is based on heat results with the top 6 reversed. Based on that your slower cars would already be at the back of the grid to start with. Something else that used to be done was that rookie drivers always started their first week at the back of the pack. Some even volunteered to start at the back past the first week. That's true, however there is a lot more to the first lap than the first corner. I haven't raced in Thunder Bay in quite a few years, but I always try to make a few trips back to see the races and help out where I can. The last weekend I saw a lot of new faces. Not only that, I saw a lot of new faces "sharing" cars. It's not a new thing to see 2 or 3 people sharing the driving duty as it does cut down on the costs. The downside of it, is that it also increases the learning curve of new drivers in a shortened season. 50% of what went on Sunday was caused by visibility, the other 50% was inexperience. If you don't believe me, ask Jeff about the car that hit him. The driver had his arms locked and was staring right at Jeff. The car had nowhere else to go, but into Jeff's car. Several years ago, we made a basic training video. It wasn't all that fancy, but it served it's purpose. On Sunday there was some discussion that maybe it was time to make a new one. With the progression in digital video it would be easier now to take video from inside and outside of the car (specifically drivers perspective). Using multiple angles and voice-over commentary you would be able to show many common situations that drivers would encounter and how to avoid causing an accident. Personally I think that would go a lot further to increasing safety than simply changing the way the grid is created. Rob
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Post by curtis on Feb 12, 2011 18:25:22 GMT -5
The rubber class was created to be a stepping stone to studded and train drivers in car control. That is one the basics driving SKILLS for an Auto Sport Club. What we have today is far off from the taget that the class was created. People are not going to be intrested in joining the club if all they see is damaged wreck cars. If we going to maintain and build the car count drivers have to respect the banks and stop driving blind into corners hoping to make it to the next. I am no longer seeing SKILL but the "ball of dogs" from the cartoons that have no direction but hoping to make it somewhere. Boy that's real racing. I think this will be my last year. Gary the club needs you. and your right wrecking cars isn't the way to make this class fly.don't worry this doesn't happen every weekend!
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Post by mark stewart on Feb 12, 2011 21:33:02 GMT -5
So... We can only hope that the the track will get the right amount of attention from the plow trucks, so we don 't have to re-invent the wheel.
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paul
Member
Posts: 39
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Post by paul on Feb 14, 2011 8:52:24 GMT -5
I would suggest that the track always gets the right attention from the plow trucks. Perhaps all rubber drives should have to start a studded race at the back of the grid in very cold weather with no wind. The windsheild wiper is sometime difficult to find in these conditions. My point here is if you weren't looking way ahead when your vision goes away, you will have no idea where you are going in the fog while you are trying to get slowed down, or redirect your car to where you think there might be some visbility. And one last point, Rob is correct about the gridding, however the 3rd heat puts the fastest cars up front also, if it gets run that day.
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Post by jonny042 on Feb 14, 2011 9:52:02 GMT -5
I stand corrected on the gridding, and apologize for not having the facts straight, I should have titled the thread "Drawing for starting positions?" So it's not necessarily a true reverse grid, but it DOES leave it up to chance for the first few heats, and considering the possibilities: If there are 8 cars drawn from a hat, there is a 1 in 4 chance that you will be drawn in the first row, and a 1 in 2 chance you will be drawn in either the first or last row. Which essentially means if a rookie driver shows up there is a 50% chance he/she will end up on the front row in either the first or second heat of their career. And of course a 100% chance they will be starting on the second row of better for one of the heats, and again a 100% chance that every other driver is going to start one of the heats behind them. So although drawing from a hat seems completely random and fair, the act of REVERSING the starting order takes the randomness from it (which is the point, it statistically evens the playing field) completely. Which is my point. Throwing rookie drivers to the wolves is not wise, fair, or safe. So I would propose, either qualifying for the first heat positions or if that is too much work, continuing the draw with the provision that rookie drivers remain at the back for their first 5 races regardless of the draw. This could be self policed and all it would take is a show of hands or something at the driver's meeting to figure who is starting the first heat. Anyrookie team with 3 or more drivers is basically going to be starting the first heat at the back all season so not too hard to figure that out. Then the 2nd and 3rd heats start based on finishing order of the previous heat. Winner on the pole, 2nd on front row, etc. Feature based on points the way it is now. This would improve the racing to a huge degree, making it much more orderly, safe, and fun for all involved. Perhaps with a few easy changes such as this we could keep things going as well as they did yesterday!! I would suggest that the track always gets the right attention from the plow trucks. Perhaps all rubber drives should have to start a studded race at the back of the grid in very cold weather with no wind. The windsheild wiper is sometime difficult to find in these conditions. My point here is if you weren't looking way ahead when your vision goes away, you will have no idea where you are going in the fog while you are trying to get slowed down, or redirect your car to where you think there might be some visbility. And one last point, Rob is correct about the gridding, however the 3rd heat puts the fastest cars up front also, if it gets run that day.
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Post by sparx on Feb 14, 2011 21:09:09 GMT -5
ok, time to chime in once more... here is how the gridding works..... random draw for the first heat. if you are a rookie driver and don't want to be in the front few rows, mention it to Reggie, Peter, or myself and you will be put to the back of the pack.... second heat is a reversal of the first heat.... if you are a rookie driver and don't want to be in the front few rows, mention it to Reggie, Peter, or myself and you will be put to the back of the pack.... third heat is based on points from where you finished the first and second heats with the first 3 rows inverted....if you are a rookie driver and don't want to be in the front few rows, mention it to Reggie, Peter, or myself and you will be put to the back of the pack.... the feature is based on total points for the day... most points gets pole, second most gets outside first row, etc., etc.... if you are a rookie driver and don't want to be in the front few rows, mention it to Reggie, Peter, or myself and you will be put to the back of the pack....
(anybody else see the pattern here?... if you feel uncomfortable at or near the front of the pack for any race, be it a heat race or feature, all you need to do is speak up and you will be placed at the back of the pack)
again, just another $0.02.....
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Post by sparx on Feb 14, 2011 21:12:35 GMT -5
oh... forgot to mention in my last post.... Sunday's racing, which went INCREDIBLY well, was run on the same basis that we run every week... random draw #1, inverted #2, points with top 3 inverted for #3, and total points for feature....... the difference for Sunday was that there were drivers that came out and said 'put me at the back'.... hmmm...
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